It’s Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney: A Conversation with Abigail Hays

David Craig – Host: It’s never been easier to hire the wrong attorney. Every lawyer says they’re a truck accident lawyer that does personal injury because they want those cases. And so, they might be standing on top of a truck in a trucking commercial. They might be on the side of a bus. They might be on a billboard. You get bombarded with ads. And some of these folks might be really good. Some of them might be the absolute worst lawyers to hire.

I’m attorney Dave Craig, managing partner and one of the founders of the law firm of Craig, Kelley and Faultless. I’ve represented people who’ve been seriously injured or who have had a family member killed in a semi or other big truck wreck for over 30 years. Following the wreck, their lives are chaos. Often they don’t even know enough about the process to ask the right questions. It is my goal to empower you by providing you with the information you need to protect yourself and your family. In each and every episode, I will interview top experts and professionals that are involved in truck wreck cases.

In the ‘Ask David’ episodes of After the Crash, we switch things up. Instead of me asking questions, I answer the questions. Nothing’s off limits, and they ask me about truck safety, about truck accidents, about semi truck litigation, about commercial motor vehicle wrecks. You name it, I talk about it. This is After the Crash.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of After the Crash. Today is one of those special episodes where it’s Ask David. It’s where the guest gets to ask me questions. And today’s guest is Abigail Hays, who is a licensed social worker and researcher. She graduated with her master’s degree from Ohio State University, and Abigail is passionate about helping people fight for their rights. She has worked with survivors of exploitation and has spent years educating teens about abuse, trafficking and predatory grooming. Skilled in trauma and legal issues, Abigail is a therapist at a private practice in Greenwood, Indiana. She is a fantastic person who I happen to get to work with, who also helped me research and write my most recent book. So, Abigail, welcome to the podcast.

Abigail Hays: Well, thank you so much for having me.

David Craig – Host: And so, today what we’re going to do is let you ask questions, and I will answer them. I’ll try to do the best that I can at answering the questions you throw at me.

Abigail Hays: Yes. Okay. Well, first off, let’s start with this new book that you have coming out. What is it called?

David Craig – Host: That’s a really good question. It’s Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney, is the name of the book.

Abigail Hays: Okay. So, what is the main message of this book?

David Craig – Host: So, I’ve been practicing law now for 38-plus years. And things have changed dramatically during that period of time. When I first started practicing, was when they first started doing television advertising. Prior to that, you didn’t have even that. Most states in the ABA, the American Bar Association, banned advertising. And so, gradually, that went away with a case called Bates v. Arizona, and that all of a sudden changed. But you look at, even back then, I remember it was very controversial when you got lawyers doing television commercials. And then all of a sudden today, we’re flooded with marketing. And what I came to realize was that if I needed an estate attorney, I would know who to pick. I would know how to evaluate, how to research to make sure that my family got the best estate attorney that I could get. But my family, who are not lawyers, wouldn’t know how to do that.

And so, whether it’s a criminal defense lawyer or it’s a family divorce lawyer, whether it’s a personal injury lawyer, whether it’s a truck accident lawyer, like myself, there are people who just don’t know how to pick lawyers. And it makes sense. If you think about doctors, doctors probably know which doctors to go to, or how to figure out which doctors to go to, but I don’t necessarily know which doctor is the best doctor to have my hip replaced. And so, I looked at it and said, “Guys, I have all this knowledge. I know how to pick the right attorneys.” Maybe with all those people being bombarded with all this information, maybe it’s time to write a book so people can know what questions to ask, how to research, how to figure out what lawyer to pick.

Abigail Hays: Okay. So, this book was really your way of giving a very practical tool to people to be able to identify who they need for whatever their legal issue is.

David Craig – Host: Absolutely. And it’s not a complicated book. It’s not a long book, but it’s a book that if most people had [it], they could pick the right attorney. And my goodness, people are picking… Like, so again, in my world—personal injury and truck accidents—you can be a personal injury lawyer and not be a truck accident lawyer and never handled a truck wreck case. So, if you happen to be in a really serious truck accident and you hire a personal injury lawyer who’s never handled a truck accident case, that may very well be the wrong lawyer to have.

And so, how in the world would you even separate and distinguish between a personal injury lawyer and a truck accident lawyer? And most people wouldn’t even know there’s a difference. If every lawyer says they’re a truck accident lawyer that does personal injury because they want those cases, they might be standing on top of a truck in a trucking commercial, they might be on the side of a bus, they might be on a billboard, they might be on an Uber car, they might be on television. You get bombarded with ads. And some of these folks might be really good. Some of them might be the absolute worst lawyers to hire. Most people have no idea which ones are and which ones aren’t.

Abigail Hays: Mm-hmm, yeah. So then if people were to get this book and they weren’t necessarily looking for a personal injury attorney or a truck accident attorney, this book would still be helpful for them?

David Craig – Host: Absolutely. So, it goes through… Generally, so whether it’s a criminal defense lawyer, whether it’s a family lawyer, an estate lawyer, a personal injury lawyer, a truck accident lawyer, really the question is how in the world do you get all the noise, how do you block out all the noise from people trying to get your business and pick the right attorney? And the problem is the higher the stakes…, like, let’s say child custody. Child custody; I can’t think of much bigger deal if I was getting divorced than who gets the kids. And if you’re fighting over that, then the question is you want a really good attorney to represent you. The worst thing in the world you could do is to get somebody who’s not very good, who’s not handled custody issues. Maybe they’ve handled divorce, but they haven’t handled custody.

So, what happens if you pick the wrong lawyer? You lose the kids. What if it’s a criminal case and you’re faced with a serious criminal… serious time in jail or prison, and you pick the wrong criminal defense lawyer? There’s people in prison who had bad lawyers, and there are people who aren’t in prison who had good lawyers. And so maybe they do a plea agreement or maybe they can work something out or maybe they are innocent. There’s innocent people who go to jail. And so, my God, the bigger the stakes, the higher the stakes, the more you should read my book. I don’t care what kind of law it is—the more you should read my book, because you need the best lawyer for whatever it is you’re looking for. And the higher the stakes, the more important that decision is.

Abigail Hays: Yeah. What would you say, for people that aren’t familiar with the world of lawyers and attorneys, what are some of the most important qualities that they want to look for in an attorney that will be able to help them?

David Craig – Host: I think that it varies depending on the person. What really matters is you as the client. And you should feel comfortable with the choice you make. So, you need to follow the guidelines I give you in the book and make sure that the person is qualified and capable, has the experience, has the knowledge, has the resources to take on your case. But then, you need to be comfortable with that person. And so, clearly I’m being interviewed today and I have a sweater on and a t-shirt. I have a dog laying back on my couch. And so, I may not be a great fit for everybody. Somebody might want a suit-and-tie lawyer. Now, I’ll take my results up against any suit and tie lawyer. But the reality is, maybe you want a more formal situation. On the other hand, maybe you don’t. Maybe you would rather have somebody who’s more laid back and casual, but it doesn’t… there’s no right or wrong answer. It’s just, what are you comfortable with?

And you shouldn’t be afraid. Especially again, the bigger the case, the bigger the legal matter is that you’re fighting over—whether it’s an estate or divorce or custody or whatever or personal injury—the bigger the dispute, the more important the dispute is, the more important it is that you feel comfortable with the lawyer. Because she or he are going to spend years with you. And so, if you don’t like that lawyer, then you’re going to spend several years maybe with this lawyer, and that’s not any good. So, I think it’s important to feel very comfortable with a lawyer. I encourage people to interview lawyers, narrow it down to the best, figure out who the best lawyers are in this particular area that you’re looking at, and then don’t be afraid to interview them. And if the lawyer is not going to interview with you, say, “Well, I’m not going to. You either pick me or else,” then maybe that’s the wrong lawyer. Because if they’re that arrogant, then maybe they’re not somebody you want.

I would prefer somebody who is willing to sit down with me and answer all my questions and talk to me and explain things to me. Because if they’re not willing to do that on the front end, what do you think is going to happen a year from now or six months from now when they’re not trying to get you as a client? Guys, lawyers ought to be on their best behavior when they’re trying to get you as a client. And if they’re not, that’s a bad sign. That’s somebody I would run away from.

Abigail Hays: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so important for attorneys to care about their clients. And I think I have kind of a unique perspective being able to sit down at the front desk and hear how the attorneys, especially at our law firm, talk about our clients. And I hear how you guys deeply care about the clients that come in. And you want to make a difference. You don’t want to just move on with the case. You want to help them, and you see them as people. So, I think especially from the framework of this book, this is just another step of how you guys really care about people, and you want to do what you can to help them.

David Craig – Host: Yeah. My goal in life is pretty simple: it’s to make a positive difference in the life of others. If your goal is to make a positive difference in the lives of others, then you never reach it. Because there’s always somebody else that you can make a positive difference in. My goal is to make a positive difference in the lives of my clients, my employees, my family. So, there’s no dollar figure, there’s no assets that I’m trying to acquire. I’m just trying to make a difference in their lives. And that can be that maybe you just listen. Maybe it’s not always financial. Maybe it’s just taking the time to get to know your clients, know what’s important to them, asking them what’s important to them. We handle catastrophic truck cases. And so, oftentimes someone is killed, or somebody has got a catastrophic injury, but it’s not always money. Money is an important part, but there’s other parts, there’s other aspects to it. Sometimes it is, we want to change the behavior of the trucking company so that no one else has to go through what this family goes through.

So, sometimes, my clients tell me, “I’m willing to take less money if they’ll change this or that.” And so, other times, people say, “No, it’s about the money.” But I don’t care. My job is to help my clients, treat them the way they want to be treated. Get them what they want, is important to them, and help them and guide them. But you can’t get there if you don’t listen and you don’t care, and you just look at every case as just a file. That’s not the way we look at things. And I think probably the best attorneys out there are ones who look at things and say, “Okay, I want to make a difference.” I don’t force my clients to go to trial. I don’t force my clients to settle. I just prepare their case to maximize the value, but also to make sure that I accomplish whatever their goal is.

And it’s amazing. Over my career, we have gotten cross guards out and crosswalks where little kids have been killed, but part of the settlement was more important that they put crosswalks out before school started. We have had playground equipment that was dangerous, that caused brain injury; we’ve had it removed. We’ve had stop signs placed in the right places, so that traffic, so that other wrecks wouldn’t occur. We’ve had trucking companies change their sleep policies so that the drivers wouldn’t drive drowsy or fatigued. We’ve just done so many different things that I could count, that I could talk about, that have been not money driven but have been change driven. And some of those are my favorite cases. But that was important to those clients. And other clients, it’s different. Sometimes, we have to make sure we get it, well, obviously we have to make sure we get enough money to take care of the families, but sometimes besides that it’s other things that you want to focus on.

Abigail Hays: Yeah, absolutely. What would you say are two of the most significant takeaways or two significant takeaways from the book?

David Craig – Host: Looking at the end of the book, I have an appendix that has a checklist, and I think that’s a helpful checklist because it helps you go through and see, does my lawyer have these characteristics? So, I would look at that, and that kind of covers everything. I use it as an example, so it forms an example of a truck accident lawyer, but the book is generic. It’s all lawyers. But I think probably the thing that’s important to me is board certification. I talk about that a lot in the book. The American Bar Association is kind of, it’s called ABA, and it’s over all states, and it provides guidelines and guidance, especially on ethical issues. And so, a lot of states adopt the ABA guidelines on ethics and things like that. And the ABA, they approve certain board certifications. State, for example, state law, criminal law, personal injury trial work or truck accidents law.

So, the great thing about that process is that by being board certified, then you’re vetted—a group that you can’t buy in, you can’t pay your way in. It’s not a popularity contest. It’s simply a process that they judge how much experience you have, how much work you’ve got, how many lawyers have actually seen your work, how many judges that have seen your work, have you written, drafted, have you taught? Then you take a test. Once you get tested over on the knowledge in that area, specific area, you have to have so many hours and practical experience. The nice thing about that is if you’ve narrowed your search and just said, “Okay, I’m going to a board certified attorney,” then you would know right off the bat, that that lawyer has been vetted by an organization that’s independent, non-biased, that is approved by the ABA.

And that, to me, that would be the one takeaway from the book is, if you have nothing else, if you could only pick one thing, then I would have that board certification process. Now, I talk about a lot of other things that are important to me because you can have a board-certified attorney who maybe is not the right fit for you, but that would be the two takeaways, is the checklist at the end, but also the board certification. And we do a good job, I think in the book, of talking about what board certification is. I know you researched, you pulled a lot of that out on what types of areas are board-certified, which groups board-certify them. And so, all of that is in the book.

So, no matter what kind of law you need, if she or he is board certified, you are already a step ahead. It’s so dangerous to pick a lawyer from marketing, internet, websites, billboards, TV commercials, all those things. Whereas if you go board certification, then right off the bat, you’ve got somebody who’s qualified to handle your case.

Abigail Hays: So, when can people get this new book that you have coming out?

David Craig – Host: So, I believe in the 1st of June, early, like June 3rd maybe, right around June 3rd. It’ll be available on Amazon. It’ll be available, I believe, at Barnes & Noble and other bookstores. And I’m sure we’ll have copies available as well through our law firm.

Abigail Hays: Okay. And is this your third book that is coming out?

David Craig – Host: My second. It’s the second book.

Abigail Hays: Your second book. Okay.

David Craig – Host: It’s my second book. And so, the books that we do, we sell, the profits go to charity. We don’t keep any of the money that we make off of the books. I don’t even know exactly where it goes. We use the money for charity. But I think it’s, both books that I’ve written are geared towards the consumer. So, I don’t write books for lawyers. Lawyers, there’s a lot of better lawyers than me, qualified lawyers that write lawyers books, and write books for other lawyers. I do get the opportunity to speak and teach other lawyers, but the books I write are to my clients and people who are like my clients that are the consumers, because I just feel like there’s just so much information out there that they don’t know. Semitruck Wreck, A Guide for Victims and Their Families, and that’s still available on Amazon. It was a bestseller in the legal niche area. But again, it was just a guideline. And this one is geared towards any attorney or anybody who needs any type of attorney. And I think it’ll be helpful for them.

Abigail Hays: That’s all the questions that I had.

David Craig – Host: Let me ask you.

Abigail Hays: Okay.

David Craig – Host: So, you helped research this book, and you helped me put it together. So, was there anything that was surprising to you that you think, “Gosh, well, that was different, I didn’t know that. I didn’t realize that”?

Abigail Hays: I think just, obviously I grew up seeing the commercials and the billboards and all of the things that we talk about in the book. And I think just really having it laid out that just because those advertisements are out there doesn’t necessarily mean that that attorney is really the best one for the issue that I might be having. So, for me, as someone that’s not familiar with the law and that type, it was really a good resource for me. And even after we finished the research and everything, having people come to me and ask, “Hey, I need an attorney for this. What are some good resources for me?” And as a social worker, we love resources.

So, it was really nice to be able to say, “Hey, you can check out this website, you can look for attorneys here.” So, that was just kind of neat for me to know that there are places for people to go. It’s not quite as vague as maybe I thought it was, but there are some tangible ways where I can find attorneys and really know what I’m getting myself into, or if I were to refer a friend or family member to someone, to a website to find someone. So, that was really helpful for me.

David Craig – Host: Well, I appreciate everything you did to help me get this book together. I’m excited for it to come out.

Abigail Hays: Yes.

David Craig – Host: And I really do. I think it’s really sad, when I see a really good case go to the wrong type or wrong lawyer. Maybe somebody’s got the money or they do a lot of advertising, and so you think they’re really good, but you don’t know anything about them. You’re picking a lawyer who might be the most important person in your life for a few years, whether it’s your, again, criminal or a family law or personal injury or truck accident law. And it’s scary to think that just because they’re on the side of a bus or on a billboard or on television or they’re having ads on Google, it’s just really scary to think that you’re putting your trust and faith in these lawyers and you don’t know anything about them. It’s just scary.

And now, and one of the other things I’ve seen in this market that didn’t exist five years ago, 10 years ago, are these lead generation companies. I actually just saw on my website, so if you typed in Craig, Kelley & Faultless, they were advertising on my name as a keyword. And so, these lead-generation companies, they buy a sponsored ad. So, they show up above my firm’s name. And sometimes, you don’t realize it’s not even my firm. They’ll say, “Injured in a truck wreck, call this number.” So, you typed in Craig, Kelley & Faultless, and popped up was a sponsored ad, but it doesn’t clearly identify itself. And it has a phone number, and it says, “Call.”

Now, what some of those are, are lawyers will advertise that way. But there are these lead-generation companies, so they’re backed by venture capital. And so, they buy ads, they take leads, and then they sell them to lawyers. And they don’t necessarily care whether you’re a good lawyer or a bad lawyer. If you can pay the cost of that lead, they will sell it to you. I actually had one the other day on call and wanted to sell me leads that they were advertising on my name.

Abigail Hays: Oh my goodness.

David Craig – Host: And so, I was like, “Wait a minute, I think I saw that name.” They were advertising my name, getting truck cases and wanted to selling them back to me. And so, these aren’t even lawyers, they’re not struggling lawyers, they’re just whoever will pay in the market for their leads. And I’m not a big fan of that. In some states, it’s not ethical, but most people would not even know about it unless they read my book. So, there’s a lot of stuff like that that goes on that’s just improper. There’s people who go, what I call runners. And especially in Florida’s really bad. When there’s an accident, then there’s people who are dispatched to the accident and give their cards out for lawyers to people and say, “Hey, if you need a lawyer, here, call these people.” There are billboards that say, and TV commercials, “If you’ve been injured in an accident, call us. We’ll give you money right away.” And they give you a check and then they take your case.

And so, there’s some really bad practices out there that could cause a client to get a bad result. And the clients don’t really even know what’s ethical, what’s not ethical, what’s right, what’s wrong. And they don’t understand that these people that end up with a case may be the worst lawyer that they could end up with. Now they could be really good, but why roll the dice on something that’s really important? So, I hope people will read the book. And again, I thank you very much for your help with it, and I can’t wait until we get it out there.

Abigail Hays: Yes, thank you so much.

David Craig – Host: All right, thank you. This is David Craig, and you’ve been listening to After the Crash. If you’d like more information about me or my law firm, learn more here. Or if you’d like to talk to me, you can call 1-800-ASK-DAVID. If you would like a guide on what to do after a truck wreck, then pick up my book, Semitruck Wreck, A Guide for Victims and Their Families, or you can download it for free on our website.