Ep. 68: Inside Canadian Personal Injury Law with Steve Grover

Steve Grover: The thing with tort reform that people need to understand, it can affect anyone in this world. I mean, you could be an orthopedic surgeon, making good money and having a beautiful life. All of a sudden, this tractor-trailer comes and rear-ends you, and you’re paralyzed.

David Craig – Host: I am attorney David Craig, managing partner and one of the founders of Craig, Kelley and Faultless. For over 35 years, I’ve dedicated my career to helping individuals and families who have been seriously injured or lost loved ones in devastating semi truck, large truck, and other commercial motor vehicle accidents. When tragedy strikes, life can feel chaotic, overwhelming, and uncertain. Many people don’t even know where to begin or what questions to ask. That’s why I created After the Crash, a podcast designed to empower you with the knowledge and resources you need to navigate these challenging times. In each episode, I sit down with experts, professionals, victims, and others involved in truck wreck cases to give you inside guidance and practical advice. Together, we’ll help you understand your rights, protect your family, and move forward. This is After the Crash. Ladies and gentlemen, this is David Craig on After the Crash, the podcast. Today, we are grateful to have Steve Grover, an attorney from Canada, as our guest. Welcome, Steve.

Steve Grover: Hey, Dave. It’s so nice to be on your podcast. Obviously, it’s an honor, and I’ve known you for quite some time in the trucking field down in the United States. Just to clarify something, so I’m in the province of Alberta, and technically, we can’t call ourselves attorneys. We can only be known as lawyers or barristers, so just make sure for the record, okay? I don’t want that-

David Craig – Host: Okay. Lawyers or barristers.

Steve Grover: Correct, yeah.

David Craig – Host: Well, Steve, he’s got a few locations, and Steve is an excellent attorney.

Steve Grover: Oh, thanks.

David Craig – Host: I met Steve during one of these trucking conferences. He was actually one of the first, went to the first, specific, kind of niche trucking group in the United States. There was a group that formed, of plaintiff lawyers that handled trucking cases, and Steve was one of the first ones in that, really in that niche. So now, gosh, we’ve been doing this now for quite some time, but I assume trucking is a big part of your practice.

Steve Grover: Yeah. I mean, the trucking is a big part of our practice, obviously, and we also do other auto cases. I’ve taken a lot of motorcycle falls on, especially when there’s a truck hitting a motorcycle. I’m a motorcyclist myself. We also do a lot of premise liability claims. Obviously, in Canada, there’s a lot of snow. There’s a lot of ice, so there’s slipping falls, trip and falls. Sometimes we’ve taken some dog bites and med mal [medical malpractice], so it’s generally a plaintiff-only personal injury firm, but we do have part of our firm that’s trucking only. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, absolutely. And Steve, he has his law firm. It’s called the Grover Law Firm. My favorite thing about Steve, though, is he is the host of the Bulldog Brewhouse Podcast, and maybe you can explain why that little dog is sitting next to you.

Steve Grover: I mean, I like being a lawyer, but I also like to have fun at work, and if you ever visit my office in Calgary, you’re always invited, David, we’ve got a lot of Canadian arts in here in my office. I always believe in helping Canadians, especially artists and musicians. My wife’s a musician. She’s actually a jazz singer, and we have some motorcycles in the office. We’ve got a couple of Ducatis. Then, get to the story of the podcast, I just thought it’d be cool to do a podcast, just another way for people to get to know me, doing some interesting topics. Even though you were on my podcast last week, which I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule, we sometimes mix it up every month.

Last month, before you, we had a cardiologist on the podcast. We’ve had a chronic pain doctor. We’ve had a motorcycle racer here in Canada. So, we’ve mixed it up a little bit, not just to be law only, just to make it fun. The reason it came up as The Bulldogs is I’ve got two bulldogs at home. I’ve gotten Winston, who’s at home sleeping, and I got Roosevelt. And so just the background of Winston. I know you’re wearing your Indiana University fleece today, but he’s a Georgia Bulldog fan. Then, Roosevelt’s a Mississippi State Bulldog fan, and we have Winston as our mascot for the motorcycle accident division of our firm. Then, I got little Roosevelt right here. It looks like a little polar bear, but that is a Bulldog, okay? So, Roosevelt is our mascot for our trucking division.

I think next year, when I have the booth in, I think it’s in Denver next year at the ATAA, I’m going to probably bring some of these baby Roosevelt’s around. The story about that is we do some cases in British Columbia, and I was at a conference in Vancouver, Trial Lawyers of BC, and there’s an IME company, these independent medical assessment companies. They hired these doctors, and I went out for the coffee break and I saw their booth, and they had a bunch of teddy bears. I thought, “That’s stupid. What are you talking about? We’re lawyers. We’re educated, we’re refined.” Then, I came back out at lunchtime, and all the little teddy bears were gone. I thought, “Okay, this is kind of cool,” so then I had Winston. Then, we eventually got Roosevelt, and we got them as our mascots. I just thought it’d make it fun to call it the Bulldog Brewhouse. I mean, we’re drinking coffee, or it could be beer, and then just call it the podcast. Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, absolutely. It’s exciting. And I know you showed me pictures of your dogs. My dog is back here, sleeping on the-

Steve Grover: Yeah. Well, I noticed that. Yeah, flipping around on your couch.

David Craig – Host: Yeah. She’s lazy, but she’s always here in my office as well. But Steve, you have offices in different locations in Canada, is that correct?

Steve Grover: Yeah, yeah. So, our main office is in Calgary, so anytime, if you want to come with the Calgary Stampede, the greatest outdoor show in the world, it’s the biggest rodeo, that’s usually the first week of July. We’re based in Calgary, which is becoming more of a cosmopolitan city now. I think it’s the third-largest city, population-wise, in Canada now, almost 2 million with the surrounding area. Then, we have an office in Edmonton, which is up highway number two from us, up three hours. And then we have an office in between Calgary and Edmonton in a town about 150,000 people, called Red Deer. Then, I’m licensed as a lawyer in Nova Scotia, so we have an office in Digby, and I’m licensed as a lawyer in New Brunswick. We don’t have an office there. We’re looking at putting one maybe in Moncton. Then, I’m also licensed, which is good for trucking, because you’ve probably seen that show called Ice Road Truckers?

David Craig – Host: Yeah.

Steve Grover: Okay, so that’s a Canadian show, all those big accidents. I’m actually licensed in Northwest Territories in the Yukon, and then we have a little office in the Yellowknife, which is minus 55 degrees Celsius, which is pretty darn cold in the wintertime.

David Craig – Host: Yeah. Stay away from that one. So, now, as far as, I always like to start off by telling me a little bit about your journey. What caused you to go into law? Was your family lawyers? What was it that caused you to go into law, personal injury law?

Steve Grover: Yeah. I mean, it was just interesting. We grew up, I’ve got three younger sisters, and they’re all here in the surrounding area of Calgary still. We all came back, and my dad was a surgeon, my mom was a nurse, and my dad was very on top of education like, “Steve, you’re five foot seven. You’re never going to be an NFL quarterback. Okay? Forget about it. You’re not good enough to play hockey. You’re not going to be the next Wayne Gretzky,” so he always pushed education with my sisters and I. I think it was about probably grade 10, he sat me down with my three sisters and said, “There’s only two jobs in the world. One’s medicine and one’s law, and that’s it.”

Then, I don’t know what it’s like down in Indiana, but sometimes kids want to like, “I just graduated high school, and I just did 12 years of education. I want to take a year off.”

My dad said, “Nope. You know what, Steve? There’s two things that are going to happen. You take that year off, you’re out of the house, or number two, you go to university and I’ll help you pay for it,” so I took the easier way out, going to university. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah.

Steve Grover: So, very interesting. We are just a family that’s very persistent. I was never an A, A student until I got to law school. I actually figured out how to study in law school. I studied smart, not longer. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Mm-hmm.

Steve Grover: And so, we just persisted. Myself, I’m a lawyer. My sister, Lisa, she’s a lawyer in Banff and Canmore. I don’t know. You’re probably familiar with Banff. It is a gorgeous part of the world. My second sister, Danielle, she’s a lawyer, and she’s sort of like a corporate lawyer. Then, my youngest sister, Maya, actually, she followed the steps of my dad and became a physician, and now she’s a family physician here in Calgary. Then, regarding personal injury, you go to law school, and I remember going to law school in Texas.

You see all these ads everywhere, these billboards and these TV ads, and it’s like, “Okay. I mean, this is not the avenue I really want to go to law school for.” Then, all of a sudden, I came back to Canada, and we have to article here. I don’t know if you’re familiar. it’s sort of like an internship, where you graduate law school, you go find a firm, they hire you as an articling student based on the old British common law system in the United Kingdom, and so I found a firm. They’re general practice, and they had a personal injury division.

My dad, being a doctor, he said, “Okay. You got a medical background, a little bit, because of me”

“Like okay, dad. I don’t know much about surgery.”

Then, all of a sudden I started getting business, and I started liking it, and what I liked about it is it’s just the individual aspect of helping people injured in an accident. It wasn’t their choice to be in the crash, and then the medical side. I mean, I’ve done a lot of reading on medicine. I’ve kept all my dad’s books on medicine since he’s passed away, and just the challenge of going up against an insurance company and getting justice for your clients. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, so do you enjoy the medical side? I mean, having that background with your dad, do you enjoy developing the medical side of a case?

Steve Grover: Yeah. I think that’s very interesting. I mean, it is just about learning about traumatic brain injuries, the silent injury. I could see someone walking down the street in Indianapolis, and he looks fine to me, and then all of a sudden he’s irritable and freaks out. Then, you realize later on, he was in a big trucking accident where he had a traumatic brain injury. It is just fascinating. Given the NFL and what’s going on, the studies, we’re just learning a little bit of how the brain works.

David Craig – Host: Sure.

Steve Grover: You know what? At the end of the day, I tell all my lawyers and all my staff, yeah, it’s great to get that fractured humerus or broken ankle, and it’s terrible for the client to go through that, but it’s objective evidence. You see the x-ray, and you see the fractured leg. You can’t dispute that, the accident, but in the brain… You could lose a leg. I’ve had a lot of clients lose legs in motorcycle accidents, and they get a prosthetic leg, but you can’t get a prosthetic brain.

David Craig – Host: Right.

Steve Grover: Honestly, I like the psychological aspect of these injury cases, the brain injuries, the post-traumatic syndrome, the general anxiety disorder, because you have to realize where this person came from, talk to laypeople before and after, friends, co-workers, how this person has changed, and then get a medical report to substantiate your claim to educate the court about psychological brain injuries.

David Craig – Host: Yeah. Well, you’re right. I mean, I can remember. I’ve been doing this now 40 years, and what we know about brain injuries today is so much different than what we did 40 years ago because of the war. We have the wars, and we have the, unfortunately, soldiers coming back with injuries. We have the athletes, who we now, we know a lot more about brain injuries because of the athletes, and it really is… But unfortunately, like you said, you can look at somebody, and if their head’s not deformed, they look the same, they look healthy, but like you said, the people who knew them before and after, oftentimes they’ll describe a completely different person than who was the person before the wreck.

Steve Grover: Yeah, yeah. So, I just find that very challenging to build a case like that, because you’re in mediation, or you’re in court and you have to tell the spouse, “Is this the same person you married before?” No, and the other spouse is going to be upset, but you know what? And maybe you have to separate into separate rooms to talk to them separately, because they still have to live together, but it’s shocking. “All of a sudden, this is not the person I married 30 years ago, and now I have to deal with it,” or I’ve had the unfortunate circumstances in brain injury cases.

One of the big first trucking cases I took on, they ended up in divorce, and it was just terrible to see the whole family split up, and they couldn’t afford to sell the house, or he couldn’t afford while the case was going on to get an apartment in Calgary, so he moved in the basement suite. It was very interesting evidence of talking to the kids, while dad was bringing these girls home to the basement suite with mom upstairs. I mean, it just didn’t dawn on him that that’s not the right thing to do. Does that make sense? My client.

David Craig – Host: Well, especially if they have a frontal lobe injury, they just don’t have the awareness.

Steve Grover: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

David Craig – Host: And so, one of the things that’s frustrating to me, though, is that trying to get value out those cases. I actually hired a neuropsychologist and a trial consultant, and we just started running a whole bunch of focus groups with the same facts; we took the same facts, and we just kept developing it, trying to figure out how do we educate the public on a mild traumatic brain injury, and we now know that you have increased risk of Alzheimer’s, dementia, all these other things, and so how do we convince people? How do we show people? How do we persuade people and educate people? And so, we spent several years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, just doing focus groups, trying to figure out what is the best. We also had a medical illustrator that we used, so we continue to work on it and tweak it so that we could find the best messaging and the best way to educate people. It’s a challenge.

Steve Grover: I’ve done this for almost 30 years. I’m younger than you, okay? But sometimes I find these medical experts, and I’ve read studies in the U.S., a lot of juries don’t understand, don’t trust these experts. At the end of the day, I get an expert, I get a neuropsych, and then defense gets their neuropsych, and then you got the battle of the experts in between. We have bench trials up here in Alberta, and are they really going to say this expert is not accepting their opinion or throw it out? What I found is you bring in the laypeople, like the family, the coworkers, the friends.
“He used to go riding motorcycle every Saturday with me, and now I don’t see him anymore.” I mean, that’s pretty impactful. Or “He used to read a book every Sunday and teach the kids math, and he doesn’t do anything,” or “He has these big explosions and just starts throwing stuff around the house, and that was not the Frank I married 25 years ago.” I think that has more of an impact, because it’s really hard for defense. How can you go up against a layperson and say, “You’re lying,” or “Did Frank offer you $50 grand out of the settlement?” You can’t ask that kind of stuff, so what is the interest of those people coming to court or even a mediation, if they’re allowed, and not telling the truth? Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, and you have enough of them describing different things, and they relate well, and so I absolutely agree. I think before-after witnesses oftentimes are more powerful than the medical side, medical people, especially on a mild traumatic brain injury, where there’s not a bleed or some type of objective evidence. No, I agree wholeheartedly with you, so. I think you mentioned something here, that you have bench trials, and I think that people listening to this, this is average, everyday folks out here in the country and throughout the country. They would be shocked to know that you don’t have jury trials. I mean, our seventh amendment in the United States guarantees federal civil suits on claims of a certain kind of cases, a certain type of money. Most states have adopted the right to a jury trial in their state constitutions, or they have those few that don’t have codes or legislation that gives you the right to a jury trial. You guys don’t have just an absolute right to jury trial, right?

Steve Grover: No. It is kind of interesting. We don’t have a constitutional right to have a jury trial. I mean, there is a right to have a jury trial on a criminal case, but in a civil, personal injury case, it is usually trial by bench, and there is a civil jury act, where in Alberta you can apply to the court, you have to make a request to the Chief Justice of Alberta. He or she will then appoint a judge to hear the application. You have to put $2,000 in court for the application, and then you go back and forth. Usually there’ll be experts, and then the case laws come out. If it’s way too complicated, if you’ve got a neuropsych against a neuropsych, you’ve got MRI imaging, and you’ve got a physiatrist, and you’ve got all economists, it may be too complicated for a lay person to grasp those ideas, and so the application would be struck, and then you just go to a bench trial only. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: How long does it take? So, let’s say somebody is visiting from the United States and goes up to Canada on vacation, and unfortunately, they get hit by a semi and someone dies, there’s a wrongful death case rather than an injury case. How long would that take up there to move that case to a resolution, typically, just on average?

Steve Grover: Oh. I mean, it matters on the insurer. I mean, we like to fall and serve right away on that. I like to get into question right away to see any liability issue, but I mean, unfortunately, I’m going to say in my office, I tell my lawyers, my staff, we’re looking five to eight years to get resolution. It takes a long time, and we have to go through questioning, obviously, like depositions. I assume that’s what they call them in Indiana, and then there’s further documents you got to get, and then I got to get my independent medical reports. The defense has got to get their reports, and then, since 2010, we have a mandatory mediation rule, where you have to go to mediation unless you can bring an application to show mediation is kind of useless, which it usually doesn’t work. Then, from there, get a judge appointed. You really don’t know your judge until 24 hours before the case, possibly—

David Craig – Host: Really?

Steve Grover: …When you go to trial, and on those complicated brain injury cases or big trucking cases, you’re looking at two to three week trial, and it does take a while, unfortunately. There is now a new rule that’s come out as July of this year. It’s mandatory litigation plans, and supposedly they’re trying to put all this into three years, which we’ll see how it works, but any pleading filed in the court at King’s Bench in Alberta, which is sort of like our district court, you have to, after September 1st, 2025, you have to enter into a proposed mandatory litigation plan with the other side, and you have to get all these steps done in three years, which we will see how it works. You know what I’m saying?

David Craig – Host: Yeah.

Steve Grover: So, they’re trying to streamline it, but it may not work. It may work. We’ll see what happens.

David Craig – Host: So, United States, we’re… And you mentioned it, I think you said you went to law school maybe or—

Steve Grover: Yeah, in Texas.

David Craig – Host: In Texas.

Steve Grover: Yeah, in Texas. Yeah, in Texas, in Big D, Dallas, so don’t mention the Cowboys, okay?

David Craig – Host: So, you saw the advertising in stuff that happens in the United States.

Steve Grover: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

David Craig – Host: And you come back, obviously in the United States, go to seminars. So, we are bombarded, and I just finished writing a book. “It’s Never Been Easier to Pick the Wrong Attorney”, just because they’re everywhere.

Steve Grover: Exactly.

David Craig – Host: In Canada, do you have as much advertising, like we do in the States?

Steve Grover: Yeah. I mean, you go to a jurisdiction like Ontario, Toronto, it’s pretty competitive out there. There’s billboards, there’s TV ads, there’s pamphlets, there’s exhibitions, like motorcycle shows people go to. Calgary and Edmonton are kind of different cities. Calgary is where all the corporate oil and gas headquarters are for Canada, so the Dallas or the North or the Houston of the north for Canada. Edmonton is a big city, more of not corporate headquarters, so there’s more personal injury lawyers there. It seems like there’s more advertising there, but there is TV advertising here. There’s billboards. I’ve got a couple billboards in around Calgary in the surrounding area. I don’t know if they work, but there’s a billboard outside our building. I thought I’ll buy it, because I don’t want another injury lawyer buying it from me. Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Sure, sure. I think one of the challenges is for people who aren’t in the business. If somebody calls me and says, “Hey, Dave. Do you know a good divorce lawyer?” I can direct them to a good divorce lawyer, but if you’re not in this business, you have no idea who’s a good personal injury lawyer, who’s a good divorce lawyer, who’s a good criminal lawyer.” And so if folks in the United States are going up to Canada, again, for vacationing, they get in an accident, or people who live up in Canada, what would you recommend to somebody on a serious injury or wrongful death case, involving a semi or just anything, if you’re on a motorcycle or whatever it is, how would you recommend people go about picking the right personal injury lawyer, because obviously you know what you’re doing, you’re a great choice, but how does the average person know that?

Steve Grover: Well, I mean, they can watch this podcast. You know what I’m saying? I mean, first of all, I can just start Googling GroverLawFirm.com. That’s fair, but advertising speed up in Canada, especially in Alberta just recently, and it’s word of mouth. I mean, we want to make sure the person has experience, resources and dedication to take on the file. I tell people up front like, “Listen, you’re not going to settle your case for two years. You know what I’m saying?”
Because most doctors will tell you, “Listen, I can’t tell if it’s permanent injury from chronic pain.” With that two-year prognosis kind of going forward, you want to make sure that they can litigate the case. I mean, they know what they’re doing. You want to ask them about what cases have they gone to court with? I mean, visit their office. I mean, if it looks like a nice office, well-prepared and organized, yeah, sure. But I think it’s important to ask around. Obviously, looking at reviews online, checking out their website, see if they got a podcast, like you and me. Other than practicing law, we’re busy doing this, and just ask around too. Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah. Well, and I think one of the other things you look at are lawyers, like yourself, that are continuing working on getting better. You and I both go to a lot of conferences. We’re going to those conferences, and every time I go to a conference, I learn something, and I think, “How in the world could I practice 40 years and not know that?” Or something has changed or something, there’s a new trend or the trucking companies are doing something that they are hiding things in a different way, and so I would think that you would want to pick a lawyer who’s continuing to improve themselves.

Steve Grover: Yeah. I mean, it’s hard to say if they are continuing. You can always check if they’re doing presentations. You can always meet the lawyer and ask them. I tell people up front, like I go to conferences across Canada. I go to conferences in the U.S. I did like school. I mean, when I came out of law school, I was trying to convince my dad to pay for a master’s of law, and I got in a lot of programs in the U.S. He says, “Nope, Steve. You’re out the door. You got three other sisters behind you. I got to pay for them,” and so, again, “You’re out of the house. Figure your own way.” I mean, I like the challenge of always learning stuff. I think it’s very interesting. My dad told me, I wasn’t a really good student in high school, and he says, “Steve, just study hard until grade 12 and get into university. Life is like gravy. It’s a gravy train.” Have you ever seen that movie Platoon with Charlie Sheen?

David Craig – Host: Yeah.

Steve Grover: And then, that one guy’s telling Charlie, “Once you get out of here, back to the U.S., and get out of Vietnam, it’s going to be a gravy train,” and my dad’s, “Yeah, that’s what’s going to happen to you, Steve, when you get out of high school. Man, it’s going to be gravy.” No, it’s not gravy. It just became more difficult, more challenging, but I think you need to understand that life, every day is a learning process. You got to learn something new, and your brain is like a muscle. If you don’t work your brain, you’re not going to have your brain. You could get dementia, Alzheimer’s.
It’s very interesting to read studies about people who retire. I mean, I read a study in England, where a lot of people get Alzheimer’s or dementia because they’re not using their brain anymore. You’re not communicating with people. Just recently, I know Jerry Spence just passed away, and he was in his 90s. I think he had the right attitude. If you enjoy your work, and you find it challenging, and you want to learn every day, I think that’s part of life. It’s great to go to Austin and have some good barbecue, but it’s also great to talk to you, other lawyers, and sit in conferences, and just challenge yourself every year to get better. Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah. Absolutely, and I also think you’ve written something.

Steve Grover: Yeah, yeah.

David Craig – Host: You’ve written right there, but I think that’s important too, because there’s a lot of lawyers who don’t write anything, who don’t give out any information that’s helpful. Talk a little bit about what you’ve written.

Steve Grover: Well, I wrote this book. I wrote three books in my time. I actually met a publisher at, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Ken Hardison. There’s a group called PILMA?

David Craig – Host: Yeah.

Steve Grover: And I was trying to figure out marketing and how to get better at marketing. I sort of went through a lull almost 15 years ago, and I went to his conferences, and I met Paperback Express Publishing. It’s a small publisher, and I just wrote this book about “Load ‘Er Up & Drive Safe”, about trucking. My book is just for the typical, American/Canadian, just to get a little snapshot of what trucking cases are all about, how a lawyer would help. It’s only an 80-page book. It’s very easy to read. It’ll probably take you half an hour to read it, but that’s just the way I’m trying to educate the public on trucking.

Also, like we talked about an ATAA conference with Joe Freed and the guys, we don’t hate truckers. We depend on truckers for our commerce of surviving in Canada, the U.S., and Mexico. If it wasn’t for them, we wouldn’t have bread on the table or milk. But at the end of the day, we’re going after the bad truckers to keep them accountable. I think that’s really important for people to understand, and they can pick up my book for free. It’s on our website. It’s only an 81-page book, and it just gives a big picture. I’m not much of a treatise guy. I don’t want to write a long treatise about trucking and the regulations. I’d rather just try and cater to the typical client that we’re dealing with, give a snapshot of what I do, what I can do, and it’s sort of like a little marketing tool we have for us. Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah. Well, and I think that so many people, they have no idea what they’re up against, and they’re in a wreck and they’re in a truck accident, and their life is chaotic. They’re dealing with horrible injuries. They may be dealing with death. They may be sitting in a hospital, and I think that it’s really nice and helpful for them to be able to gather information like your book to be able to gain information and insight.

Steve Grover: Yeah. I just saw it as an avenue, and I have a book on motorcycle accidents and, actually, one on premise liability, called “Beyond the Banana Peel”. I don’t know what you think about that one.

David Craig – Host: It’s got a picture of Banana Peel on it, right?

Steve Grover: Yeah, it’s got a banana peel on it. I can send you a copy here.

David Craig – Host: Yeah. I’ve seen it. I looked online.

Steve Grover: Yeah.

David Craig – Host: And both, are all three of your books, are mainly aimed at the consumer?

Steve Grover: Yeah, pretty much consumer. I think it’s very important to be intellectual, but you got to understand where your clients, consumers are coming from. I’m not going to be representing the Rockefeller family in a trucking accident and probably not. You understand? I think it’s really important to give back the community. We do that a lot with Grover Law Firm, understand where our clients are coming from. Like you mentioned, a lot of people are in these big trucking accidents, and they’re living paycheck to paycheck. It’s really hard in Canada and the U.S. right now with inflation and taxes, and a lot of lawyers say like, “What’s the big deal? You’re missing one week of pay? Well, what’s the big deal?” But that paycheck depends on feeding the whole family. Maybe the member of the family was working two jobs just to pay school fees, put bread on the table, and pay for gas. I think you really need to understand where your clients are coming from, because you and I, we don’t represent the big ivory tower institutions. We represent the typical person in North America. Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah. What should people know about the Grover Law Firm? I mean, what should they know? I mean, why are you different? Why go to you? Why should I come hire your law firm? Why are you going to be different and take good care of me, as somebody who gets injured up in Canada?

Steve Grover: Well, I think I’ve taken a lot of time to understand what other law firms are doing, and try and integrate that into my firm, take the good and the bad, and realize what the bad is. I think client contact is really important. If I go to buy a car, I want to make sure there’s a receptionist there, there’s a salesperson to be patient with me, to show me the car. If I want to pay cash or financing, walk me through all the alternatives, rather than treat you like a number. At our firm, we always have a receptionist. I will always have a receptionist, even with the advent of AI coming on. I don’t like to call companies where, “Press one to get David, press two to get Steve.” I don’t like that. I like someone.

We spend the time. I tell people, “We’re going to take your case seriously. We’re going to build it. We’re going to trial, because if you want peace, you prepare for war,” like Sun Tzu, “The Art of War”, that book, and that was one of the first books I read as an articling student. My principal told me to read that book, and it was a foundation of how to build a business or how to live your life or how to run a law firm. Then, we have the experience. Obviously, we’ve got knowledge. We’re always going to conferences, and we’re dedicated. I think you have to be persistent in what you’re doing and not give up until you get the right result for your client. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah. How important is it to have the resources? I mean, in these bigger, complicated, you’re battling the biggest insurance companies, you’re battling some big corporations, you’re battling some big trucking companies. How important is it to have a lawyer who has the resources to invest in your case?

Steve Grover: Well, I think it is one of the most important things, is not only be tenacious, but have the resources to keep on fighting that case for year, year, and pushing them, pushing them, pushing them, because they expect plaintiff lawyer to give up or not have the resources to go to trial. I mean, you can easily spend $100 to $200 grand in disbursements alone to go to a 2, 3 week trial, but you got to budget that, and you sort of have a war chest or a line of credit or financing coming in from revenue. I think it’s really important to go through depositions.

If you have to depose five or six employees and former employees to find the right answer and liability, you got to do it. You got to fight for your client, stand up for your client in depositions. You got to go hire those experts, like you mentioned a neuropsych, a biomechanical engineer, an economist to prove your case, because you got to remember, as plaintiff counsel, we’ve got the burden of proof to prove the case. Defense can sit back and do nothing and, “Oh, there’s a non-suit now, because you know what? At the end of the day, plaintiff counsel closed their case, and they have no expert evidence to show anything.” Does it make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, and I think, like you said, it costs money. The reality is it takes money, and our clients don’t have the money, nor should they have to invest the money to go up and hire mechanics, reconstructionists, all these other experts, like you mentioned. The lawyer’s going to have to front that money, and so, just recently, a lawyer came to me and said, “Hey, I need $50,000, and my wife said no, because my wife said no,” and so he was skimping on doing things that he knew he should do, because he just didn’t have the war chest build up.

Then, he went to talk to his wife about it, who helped run his firm, and she’s like, “No,” and so he came to me, but it was kind of late in the game. He should have invested some of the money early, but I don’t think if you’re an average person, who’s not been part of the law process, you may not recognize that if you pick the wrong lawyer, and that lawyer doesn’t have a war chest or doesn’t have the resources or doesn’t understand the importance of hiring experts, you could really put yourself at a disadvantage.

Steve Grover: Oh, yeah. I totally agree with that. I mean, any kind of orthopedic injuries, you got to get those IMEs in, get an orthopedic surgeon to, not only get a report from the treating orthopod or the family doctor, but get an independent expert to do their duties to the court, to educate the court, not have bias. Obviously, from any kind of orthopedic injury, like a broken leg, you’re probably going to have chronic pain. Get a physiatrist, and then from there, maybe get an OT to do a functional assessment, cost of care analysis. Then, from there, get an economist, and maybe need a vocational assessment psychologist too, to say, “Okay. Frank can’t do these jobs, but he can do these jobs, light sedentary job, rather than being a heavy duty mechanic.” I mean, that all costs anywhere from $50 to $100 grand for all those experts.

David Craig – Host: Absolutely.

Steve Grover: And it costs a lot of money, and I was naive. I’ll let you know, when I was 28 like, “Oh my God. These guys are making big money, man. I just want to get one big file, and I can buy a Ferrari,” and I didn’t understand the whole implication. Insurance companies, they just don’t tender the limits. If it’s a million dollar case. I know in the U.S, you guys are constantly fighting, when I go to these trucking seminars, about peeling the onion like, I think minimum for trucks, semi-tractor trailers, like $750 grand U.S., and you got someone who loses their life and used to be a doctor. I mean, $750 [grand] is not going to go very far, and they just don’t tender the limits. I’ve never had a case, in almost 30 years, where a trucking company, insurance company just tendered their limits and said that, “We’re done.” They’re going to fight you, because they want to save that money or prove that case ain’t worth $1 million or $2 million. You know what I’m saying?

David Craig – Host: Or if they do offer, you become very suspicious.

Steve Grover: Yeah. There’s more money behind the table.

David Craig – Host: There’s more money there. They’re trying to get you to take a quick settlement.

Steve Grover: Yeah.

David Craig – Host: We’ve been finding, it’s amazing to me how many times we’ve been lied to about how much insurance there is. In fact, we found out there was different stacks or different layers, and so we have a method that we go through, because I just don’t take them. Even if they’ve answered interrogatories in the U.S, where we’ve got written answers under oath and produced the policy, it’s not always accurate, and they lie to their own lawyers, so it’s not the lawyers misrepresenting things; it’s the insurance company, the trucking company.

Steve Grover: Yeah. I always hear, “You got to go up the insurance tower to get more policy, don’t you? Pretty much.”

David Craig – Host: Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Grover: That’s the same here in Canada.

David Craig – Host: You said— I’m sorry, go ahead. I’m sorry.

Steve Grover: Yeah, that’s the same in Canada too. You don’t know if there’s an umbrella policy or a farm policy involved. I mean, you got a commercial truck that causes an accident that’s part of farm. That’s probably a farm policy with more insurance there. You know what I’m saying?

David Craig – Host: So you’ve got to have an attorney that has the knowledge that they can go back and say, “Okay. You want to make sure that you’ve exhausted every avenue to get your client’s money.”

Steve Grover: Correct, yeah.

David Craig – Host: And one of the things you said early on, I think, was you got to go visit their office, and I think that’s important, because one of the things that I always tell people that it’s a red flag is you go to their office, and their signs are all wore out, their furniture’s wore out. Maybe they got names on the letterhead that they’re no longer there, and they can’t afford to change the signs. You’re like, you walk in there, and it’s like, “Well, maybe they don’t have the resources necessary to take my case.” That might be a red flag. You might want to turn around and go out and find yourself somebody else.

Steve Grover: You talk about that. When I opened my own firm, like 2003, I went around and I was looking in the window, looking at different offices, how they decorate their offices, had my mom come help decorate our office, and then I went to one office. They had a big coffee stain right down the hallway at the reception area. It’s like, “No, and I don’t want blue carpet either,” because unfortunately, appearances, your first impression is the lasting impression. Would that make sense? You know what I’m saying? I think it’s important, and look around the office. If it’s a dirty office and there’s papers everywhere, maybe your case is going to get disorganized. You know what I’m saying? Are they completely online now? Are they using AI?

That’s another question. We learned in Austin about how AI is going to be taken over the world. I think it’s going to be a big game changer in society and the economy, and probably in the practice of law too. Make our job easier. But unfortunately, there could be a lot of jobs lost in the legal industry with support staff with AI, and are they using AI to research their cases? The other thing that’s come up in Canada, and I know in the U.S, are they depending on AI to get their case law? Because you can look at the case law, but maybe that’s the wrong case that’s not in this jurisdiction. So, are they noting up their cases? Because I know a couple lawyers have got in trouble in Canada, depending on AI to do the research, and the case didn’t even exist in Canada. You know what I’m saying?

David Craig – Host: In the U.S, I mean, there’s lawyers getting sanctioned regularly now, but that’s just laziness. It’s purely. I mean, even if I had an associate draft a brief for me, we’re going to check the cites. And so, they’re pulling stuff off of a computer and using AI, and they’re not checking the cites, and they’re filing these briefs with the court. Those are the same people who, there used to be a lawyer here in the States, and he would cite cases all the time. Now, they were actual cites, but they never stood for what he said they did, so you had to actually read every case that he cited, because I guarantee you, they didn’t say what he said, and so, the reality is that it bothers me that lawyers are lazy enough that they’re having AI do the research, and they’re not even reading or proofing before they file it with the court.

Steve Grover: Yeah, yeah. I mean, any brief that comes in that I or one of my associates do, I always want to double check the brief. I get out my red pen and mark it up, and I set up the cases or quoting, and just to make sure that we’re putting out a professional product, because obviously we want the client to review it, see if there’s any changes, and then when we go to mediation or court, we don’t want it to jump out and say, “Listen. Well, where’d you guys get this case?” or “This argument doesn’t even make sense.”

David Craig – Host: So, you’ve been doing this for a while, so how involved are you in cases today?

Steve Grover: I like to be here five days a week. Even Saturday morning, I like to come in. I mean, it was very interesting. My dad was a surgeon, and he had to do his rounds at the hospital here in Calgary from 9:00 AM to noon, so he would take me along. I go to the general hospital when it was still around here in Calgary. He’d put me in the doctor’s lounge, and there was a big doctor’s lounge, like TVs everywhere. They don’t have this anymore now, okay? The doctor lounge idea is gone. They had 50 different cups of coffee and hot chocolate and chicken noodle, and all the doctors would come and talk to me while my dad was doing his rounds.

So, I was just used to seeing my dad do that, because he was committed to his practice as a doctor, and he is making money working a Saturday morning, but then we’d have the rest of the weekend off to spend together to go to Banff, go for a little drive, or play tennis, but I just like coming in on Saturday morning. I mean, some people think it’s weird, but it’s quiet time. There’s no phone calls or maybe an email, but you can just focus on getting some work cleaned up or get organized for the week coming up. I like meeting the clients. I think it’s really important, if you’re the lead lawyer in the firm, to meet the clients and make them feel reserved that you’re going to be involved in the case, help out in applications, go to court, help out in mediations. I think it’s not micromanaging, but I’m always there in the background. Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, and you mentioned that a big part of your practice is motorcycle cases.

Steve Grover: Yeah.

David Craig – Host: I was curious, so you actually ride as well, right?

Steve Grover: Yeah. Unfortunately, I got too many bikes. I mean, I always think in the back of my head, my next bike, I’m looking at the BMW 1300 GS adventure. I just like bikes. My whole family, interesting, rides too. My brother-in-law, who’s married to my sister, who’s a doctor, he has a company called Perfect Lap. He does a lot of racing at the track here near Calgary. He’ll train people. My dad was a car guy. He liked cars. I like bikes, and I just enjoy getting out on the road. It is dangerous, honestly.

I mean, I’ll be honest with you; before I get on my bike, I sort of pray to God that I’m coming home in one piece, because the accidents I’ve seen people come in, losing limbs and brain injuries, and how families can get destroyed in a wrongful death case, by a split of a second, you’re riding a bike, and someone could hit you and you could lose your leg. I think it’s important, if anyone rides a bike, my theory is I pretend I’m invisible, so it’s my obligation to look out for the vehicles, not for them to look for me, because I guarantee they’re not paying attention to me. It is kind of scary now, doing a lot of motorcycle accidents, trucking accidents, and being out on the road, and I just tend to get out of Calgary and go away where there’s no cars around, but I’m always being attentive 110%.

David Craig – Host: So, do you think that riding has helped you and it makes you a better motorcycle plaintiff lawyer?

Steve Grover: Yeah. I think sometimes, I believe we always hear the theme at these trucking seminars or on the list service or ATAA, “A trucking accident is not like an auto accident.” I think a motorcycle accident is different. You need to understand how a motorcycle runs, what the maintenance requirements are. It is a standard clutch, where your blind spots are even on a motorcycle. And so, I think it helps me understand motorcycling and also trucking cases too, because a lot of motorcyclists don’t understand. There’s huge blind spots when you pull in right beside a 53-foot-long trailer. They’re not going to see you. You know what I’m saying? I always learn something new when I’m riding my bike like, “That guy could have caused an accident,” or construction sites. Be careful when you’re riding your motorcycle through a construction site, because the roads are uneven. The last thing I want to be involved in, even though I’ve been in many motorcycle accidents, is another motorcycle accident where I could lose a limb or change my family’s dynamic forever.

David Craig – Host: Yeah. Well, you mentioned too, premise cases, because you guys get some bad weather up north. So, some states here, Indiana, we get snow, we get ice, and I think in Ohio, those are tougher cases. It’s kind of like, it’s kind of a known risk. Indiana, we have comparative fault. In Chicago, I mean, so they’re tough cases, but they’re winnable cases. How tough are they, a premise slip and fall, ice kind of case, up where you’re at?

Steve Grover: Well, I mean, in Alberta and jurisdictions, like Nova Scotia where I’m also licensed as a lawyer, we do have the Occupiers Liability Act, which is a statute pretty much. There’s Section five says, “There’s a reasonable duty to take care of the premises for visitors, invitees.” There are interesting cases, and you just got to get out there. Every file pretty much we open, I make sure I go to the scene of a slip and fall, a trip and fall. I want to see what happened. There’s certain defendants you don’t want to take on, like the city of Calgary, because you got to prove gross negligence, so they are challenging, but like my dad said, “No pain, no gain.”

You know what I’m saying? You got to work hard to make the money, and if it comes too easy to you, there’s obviously something more hidden behind it. Premise liability claims, you got to get out to the scene. You got to get those shoes. Keep that evidence. Were they drinking anything? Did they have anything in their hand? Were they paying attention? You go to Walmart now, and they have these corridors where you have to go through to get to the cashier, because they’re putting all the stock there that they want to sell, but it’s taking your attention away from the floor, because you’re looking at that Reese’s Peanut Butter cup chocolate bar and saying, “Do I really want this? It is this Friday night. Do I want a cheat on my diet?”

Then, all of a sudden, there’s coke or soda all over the floor, and you slip and fall, and you break your leg, so they are challenging. You have to get the investigator out to take photos of the scene, get statements. Obviously, some of these owners or premises are not very cooperative to give us the investigation report. Are they doing an investigation? Are their CCTV cameras working? How many times I’ve done a premise liability claims and the video cameras are not working? Like, okay. Well, how are you going to prove my otherwise? You understand?

David Craig – Host: Yeah, yeah. So again, if somebody’s up there visiting, and they’re not familiar with the local law and they’re vacationing there, is there a statute? In most states in the United States, we have a statute of limitations, and we have to bring a case within a certain period of time. So, in Indiana, if you get hit by a truck, you’ve got two years, typically, unless you’re a minor or incapacitated, but in Tennessee, it’s one year, so it varies depending on what state you’re in. We always tell people we move quickly, because you don’t know, and certain, like consortium claims may be different, slip and fall cases may be different. Do you guys have statutes and limitations?

Steve Grover: Yeah. We have a Limitations Act, which is codified with our Alberta statutes, and it’s a two-year limitation period. There is a discoverability rule. Obviously, with a med mal case or a sexual assault case, there’s leeway on that, but if you’re in a car accident or you’re visiting Banff, and you slip and fall in the store and you break your ankle, you’ve got two years to follow the suit. Then, from the date you file the suit, you’ve got one year to serve all the defendants with the pleadings. Yeah.

David Craig – Host: So, what do you think the biggest challenge a personal injury lawyer faces today?

Steve Grover: I think it’s always tort reform, no matter what. I mean, these insurance companies, they’ve got all the money, they’ve got all the power, they’ve got all the lobbyists. I mean, sometimes they got the ear of the politicians. But the thing with tort reform that people need to understand, it can affect anyone in this world. I mean, you could be an orthopedic surgeon making good money and having a beautiful life. All of a sudden, this tractor trailer comes and rear ends you, and you’re paralyzed. I mean, I think that’s the biggest fear all the time, is this persona of tort reform, this idea of ambulance chasing, which I don’t agree upon. I know it’s tough to take on these cases. First of all, someone, their whole life is turned upside down. They don’t know what to do for money. The family’s all disarrayed, and you’re just trying to put their life as it was before the crash, and that’s just a battle every day, litigating these cases.

You know what I’m saying? So, I think tort reform is the number one threat to personal injury, and just that persona about what kind of work do we really do? It was very funny. 15 years ago, a client said, “You guys just push paper all day to make all this money.” Okay, so then we took his case on, and we went all the way to court. We had something called Judicial Dispute Resolution, which is a mediation with a real trial judge in Calgary. We came out. He subtly said, “Man, you guys worked your butt off of my case. I have so much respect for you guys.” That’s another persona, because seeing my dad, and seeing him work in the clinic or going to the hospital, when you see a doctor, you actually see him or her and them working for you. But I always tell my clients, even my staff and other lawyers, we don’t do any work until it’s behind the scenes and we’re working away at the computer, researching a case. How can I take a phone call and work on a brief at the same time? Does that make sense?

David Craig – Host: Yeah.

Steve Grover: Yeah.

David Craig – Host: So, what else would you like people to know about Steve Grover or the Grover Law Firm, personal injury, or truck cases?

Steve Grover: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, I think the most important thing is to realize that I was raised by two loving parents, and I got three good sisters. We’re all working hard. I think the most important thing my parents always taught us is give back to the community. I think it’s really important to be part of the community here in Calgary and Alberta and Canada. See what we can do to make this world better, because obviously, it’s good to make money or have material stuff, but I mean, if for some reason I crash a motorcycle, it is going to be replaced, but I think it’s really important to give back to community. Trucking cases, like Joe Friedman once said, “We’re not after the trucking industry. We love the trucking industry. They’re a whole bastion for our society and commerce, but make sure you got good truckers out there.”

You got good trucking companies that are hiring good truckers, or not taking cut holes, shortcuts to make a profit, because you know how it is with profit over people. You know what I’m saying? And I’ve seen that in premise liability claims, where they don’t keep maintenance records, because it costs money to keep those maintenance records, or a trucker’s overworking out over shift, because he is trying to make that delivery and he’s already breaking the rules. So, I think people need to understand that plaintiff lawyers, and our law firm, is here for the benefits society. We are lawyers, but everyone’s got to have a job. It doesn’t matter if you’re a housekeeper or a gas attender, lawyer, doctor, society’s got to survive with everyone working together in the economy.

David Craig – Host: Yeah, and I know you believe, like I do, which is I think we make a positive difference in the lives of our clients, but we also make a positive difference in the lives of our employees, but we also make a positive difference in the communities in which you practice, which is exactly what you’re saying.

Steve Grover: Yeah, yeah.

David Craig – Host: Well, Steve, thank you so much for being a guest on our podcast, After the Crash, and how do people go about finding you?

Steve Grover: Well, we’re all over Google, so just hit GroverLawFirm.com. Check us out on social media. We’re on Instagram, we’re on Facebook, Twitter, X. You know what? Just reach out to us. If anyone just wants to come by the office and have coffee with me or my staff, just to see what we do or just talk a little about community service and stuff like that, feel free to reach out to me anytime. Okay?

David Craig – Host: All right. Well, thanks, Steve.

Steve Grover: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me, and I really appreciate it, David.

David Craig – Host: This is David Craig, and you’ve been listening to After the Crash. If you’d like more information about me or my law firm, please go to our website, CKFLAW.com, or if you’d Like to talk to me, you can call 1-800-AskDavid. If you would like a guide on what to do after a truck wreck, then pick up my book, Semitruck Wreck: A Guide for Victims and Their Families, which is available on Amazon, or you can download it for free on our website, CKFlaw.com.